Scalding rye flour

[ianh]

Some rye flour recipes call for the flour to be scalded prior to dough making. Can anyone explain what the purpose of this is? What difference should I notice in bread made with scalded flour versus unscalded?
Regards
Ian

[lepard]

you mean made into a batter with boiling water before mixing the dough?

[ianh]

you mean made into a batter with boiling water before mixing the dough?

Yes, that's what the recipes describe.

[lepard]

It's supposed to make rye flour taste sweeter, ferment quicker and help give the final loaf/crumb more elasticity. When I've used it in recipes (like in the handmade loaf) it was really just because that's what bakers did and it gave a result I liked.
Dan

[ianh]

Thanks for that Dan. I've had a couple of goes at variations on the Borodinsky rye bread theme, and the one I made with a boiling water batter was certainly much sweeter. But I had changed so many other things between the two attempts that I wasn't sure what this was due to. With this information I can maybe get closer to the result I want!
Ian

[sean]

The scalding of rye flour is common in scandinavian countries - in Sweden for example much bread is made with scalded flour. I believe the boiling water denatures (deactivates) the amylase enzyme in the rye flour, making the finished product firmer and less sticky.

[ianh]

It seems to me that there might therefore be at least three different thing going on:
1. The high temperature denatures some of the amylase, as described by Sean above, which presumably means that the starches in the flour are not being broken down into sugars to the same extent during the fermentation period
2. On the other hand, pouring boiling water onto an equal weight of flour at room temperature will only result in some of the flour being heated to a high enough temperature to denature the amylases. When I tested the temperature of the mix immediately after stirring boiling water into an equal weight of rye flour, it was only in the high 60s Celsius. According to what I've read in this thread - http://www.danlepard.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1766 - this is just the temperature range at which amylases are most effective. But of course this temperature is only sustained for the 30 minutes or so that it takes the mixture to cool down.
3. Some of the scalded flour will have got hot enough to gelatinise, and pre-cooking flour is a way of keeping the crumb of the loaf moister for longer - see http://www.danlepard.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1743

I've been experimenting with a rye-based fruited malt loaf, so sweetness and a bit of stickiness are desirable attributes. That would tend to suggest I ought to be trying to maximise the activity of the enzymes. But the best result so far has been from using a boiling water scald - doesn't seem to make sense, but the results taste pretty good, so maybe I'll just stick with that.

[lepard]

Ian has raised an interesting point, and I think this applies to many of the methods taken from old traditional bakery work and reproduced in the home.

Increasing the volume to the quantities used in bakeries, some methods are transformed. If you have 25kg rye flour in an wooden vessel, and 25kg boiling water is poured onto it and beaten together, you would expect (a) the temperature to be lower by the time the beating was finished than if using a smaller quantity [since there is more beating to be done, letting the temperature drop, and the starting temperature of the flour might be colder as it's usually stored away from the oven area] and (b) the temperature would be held for longer than a smaller quantity as the volume is greater and the wooden barrel would insulate it.

So when you're translating old recipes you have to think "are there any benefits to making it in volume" and tweak the recipe for the home cook or baker. If you took 25kg of coarse rye flour and mix it with and equal weight of warm water and leave it overnight I would expect it to be fermenting well by morning.

regards

Dan

[jeremy.pickett]

The final temperature of your flour and water is determined by the heat capacities of either ingredient. A formula I found doing a couple searches (and I haven't validated this formula, but it looks right as compared to an excel spreadsheet formula I use ) is:

Tf = (Hc1*M1*T1 + Hc2*M2*T2)/(Hc1*M1+Hc2*M2)

Where:

* Tf = final temperature
*
* Hc1 = heat capacity of first mass
* M1 = wieght of first mass
* T1 = current temperature of first mass
* Hc2 = heat capacity of second mass
* M2 = weight of second mass
* T2 = current temperature of second mass

source: http://www.uberbeergeek.com/bih/hbmash.htm


Here is an online calculator you can use to calculate your water temperature, flour temperature (which I'm assuming is close to flour), and weights of each:

http://www.brewheads.com/strike.php

I doubt it's perfect for breadmaking, especially since the weights are so small, but it may be useful to some people.

[dougal]

Hang on !!!

There are at least three different things being discussed --

1/ The different temperature variation with time for large and small batches, and thus the need to change the method detail along with the quantities. I'm not sure, but it sounds as though Dan might be saying that the traditional and large scale method does NOT use boiling water...

2/ The intended sweetening of the "mash" (hot flour/water mix), and what causes it.

And thus
3/ Whether using *boiling* water is the best way of producing that sweetening effect.
I'm wondering whether a small batch might be better kept warm, rather than being hit with a very high temperature. Then whether its needed to positively cook the mix (as Jeremy.Pickett did in his interesting thread http://www.danlepard.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1766 ) or whether a variation of the home-yoghurt-making-in-a-thermos-jug technique might be even better and easier.
However the prior questions are about what precisely we are trying to achieve. Is it an exposure to really high temperature, or is it prolonged warmth? (Or both! )


For a few years, at least, we have known of the benefits of retarding doughs by cooling them.
I've got a feeling that there's another world to explore with heated batters and grains (before yeast addition).
I'm intrigued by this rye 'scalding' AND the "curious method bakers once used to keep bread moist. Cooked starch, as simple as flour boiled in water, was found to help keep the crumb extra soft" mentioned by Dan in the Red Onion and Green Olive Rolls recipe http://www.danlepard.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=1743 which certainly sounds as though that is an effect produced by going to 100C rather than holding at about 65C...

It seems to be a rather unexplored area... at least among home bakers...